davem
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Post by davem on Sept 2, 2013 20:32:15 GMT
I just downloaded outsystems again to get a better look. I did not do much testing last time due to pricing. Hopefully they are coming out soon with another less expensive version than the 30,000 dollar one.
I expect they did a little like alpha and have overpriced theirselves. They would be taking a much smarter approach by doing this smart smaller developer(beginner) platform. My opinion.
Dave
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2013 21:10:53 GMT
Hi Dave,
Just thought I'd chirp in a bit. I've been watching the videos and like what I see thus far. I like the way it lays things out as it gives me a visual of how it's organized. The only thing I don't like about the videos, is most of the time, he doesn't say where he's clicking so it takes a few views to figure it out. I will be interesting to see how much can be done with the free version and I really hope the new pricing is reasonable.
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davem
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Post by davem on Sept 3, 2013 4:13:48 GMT
Well, from what I have seen on the message boards it seems to still be conjecture. The hope is that it is true, nonetheless. I cannot afford the 30K per year. I also saw where others were talking about the yearly a few years ago being 500 ayear and others at 200 per month. I did not look at it until about 15 months ago and I was quoted at 24000 then.
I guess we will see.
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Ted Giles
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Post by Ted Giles on Sept 9, 2013 17:49:58 GMT
Well I have just downloaded the Community version and I'm impressed. Money will be an issue though, but it's fun comparing Alpha and Outsystems approaches. The IIS bit is seamless, so a good way of developing over an Intranet I suspect.
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davem
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Post by davem on Sept 9, 2013 18:48:56 GMT
Ted,
Almost everything we have tested can go web or intranet as well as phone/tablet.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 9:33:17 GMT
Outsystems has simply never been designed for the independent, small, developer (like Alpha Five). It has been developed towards the corporate software departments who don't care that much what the initial investment is. The real question always is, what are the COSTS (initial development costs and maintenance costs) NOT how low/high the INVESTMENT is. I have personally made extensive calculations in the past that showed that an investment of 150.000 euro's in Outsystems in that particular situation would have been earned back in less than 1,5 years. Completely. Due to reducing of initial development cost and for a large part also maintenance costs.
One of the things that is really worth a closer look at is the complete design of the system. The platform exists of WAY MORE than only the Service Studio. All elements together give a very professional situation to which Alpha Five is really absolutely no match at all. Alpha Five ONLY offers a development product and a server product. What about working in teams of developers? Alpha offers NOTHING for that. Has never offered ANYTHING for team efforts. It is a complete riddle to me how on earth Alpha Software would think they really have a chance launching their products on the corporate market not even touching anything related to important issues as team development management, or application lifecycle management.
On the contrary, the product has even been reduced in functionality with regards to installation since it now does not even offer the built-in installer anymore. So not only they do NOTHING about life cycle management, they don't even offer anything to install the product once developed with Alpha Five. It's really a poor package that will prove to be unsuccessful in the corporate market. it won't even be considered. The fact that they do seem to think they CAN penetrate that market with the current product range is quite alarming since it sort of proves they have started to believe their own marketing delusions. Outsystems offers a complete approach. However, it has some issues connecting to non-Outsystem software in the corporate environment with regards to an overall approach of managerial subjects as lifecycle management. Such things should be done for all elements of the software landscape and not just for one group of it. Outsystems takes care of its own very well, but that may for some very large corporate environments not be enough since it lacks connectivity to other parts (non-outsystems) of software that need management too. That's discussing deep details though.
Outsystems is a product that, as far as I am concerned, is reaching out to perfection more than any other current platform. Yes, it is expensive, but in many occasions that investment may be earned back very soon. As a developer, you need to understand the logic behind those investments / R.O.I. - calculations in order to communicate them to your customers. Your customer will say: "Heck, that's expensive!", and you will say: "Seems that way. But your investment is earned back within x months already." It may easily save him 1 or 2 developers on his team, times 100.000$ a year.... I think that if you are working in a niche of the software market that Outsystems would apply to, that in that case you need to have your skills upgraded as well and not only be able to develop the customers product, but also be a skilled advisor with regards to investment, R.O.I. and operational costs. You need to make the picture complete.
We all know how that calculation works out for an independent developer selling Alpha Five web application products to different customers. They will all need an Alpha Five Application Server. Dave has already published several calculations about that showing what this means to both developer and customer. As a developer, we need to get on top of those aspects of our work, not only have the skill to create the appropriate calculations, but also to present them and use them in our "sales pitch".
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davem
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Post by davem on Sept 10, 2013 16:59:12 GMT
Marcel correct me if I am wrong?
If we had a team of the few of us and 5 other developers working on a huge contract, then the cost would be acceptable. The main problem for me is I am not a part of such team, have no huge contract where a team is needed, and not enough money for the yearly investment in outsystems.
Please don't take this wrong, but I see no outsystems in my future as a viable product unless their pricing is much reduced.
I have a small app that I sell as a windows dt product. I intend to take that to the web and charge a monthly fee of 10.00 for the use. I see a possibility of this with outsystems if I have several thousand people a month paying for the use. It probably won't reach that number for 3-5 years.
I do like that outsystems also generates Java apps.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 17:22:03 GMT
You forget the Community Edition. If you are within the limits of that, it could suffice perfectly and even is for free. Indeed, there is talk about a new license between enterprise and community, it was stated by an Outsystems official... so....
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davem
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Post by davem on Sept 10, 2013 17:35:54 GMT
Hi Marcel,
I had heard about the possible new license even before you originally brought it up. That would be a possible reason to do something. The only maybe problem is the possibility of them stopping that in the future as they did before.
No, I did not forget the community edition. I am aware of the freebie they offer. It would work fine on a small app like the one I talked about.
The delemna: learn outsystems for small apps. learn inde for medium apps learn scriptcase for very large apps
Too much learning, not enough working
Present plan(may change) is inde for most apps for desktop and web and scriptcase(php) for the really large ones and since inde seems to have a great report writer, can use the report writer with inde with an outside call from the inde app. I may finde that scriptcase is not needed in the future. Just hedging my bets a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 20:10:43 GMT
Yeah, that's a point of consideration yes. However, isn't it true that every job needs its own tools? If you have a custom job for a medium or large application, than obviously the cost would need to include the tooling at least for a part. Does not take away the need to learn the tool that's correct. With In.De you would not have to re-learn yet another tool, you would just have to enhance the license IF you got to a point that you could not work within the limit of the lower license. It's all a matter of choice. At this point, I have only 2 types of app on the list: very large, and very small :-) For the smaller apps, I am going for Outsystems and will use their community edition. The very large app still is in Alpha Five v12 since it is almost done and it would be ridiculous to toss that away and do it again in something else. That both will take some time, and in between I hope the word on the new Outsystems license is out. If that works for me, I will completely change to Outsystems, if it doesn't, I will probably move to Hyfinity's WebMaker for the larger apps. Time will tell. Obviously, my tool of choice would be Outsystems. But not at 30.000$ it won't.
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Ted Giles
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Post by Ted Giles on Sept 16, 2013 20:02:33 GMT
Any chance of getting some sponsorship? We should be able to get a good deal like John Willems did with InDe for a group. I'd be more likely to get stuck in to a product we could have and use as a group than a bunch of dispsrate developers. Alpha brought us together so we know it works. Ps . Still slugging it out regarding credentials. I have been researching web sites and am getting a bit closer. It wasn't as easy as I thought it would be!
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davem
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Post by davem on Sept 17, 2013 1:29:39 GMT
I believe that was for 1 site with one seat at 30,000 dollars. To add seats could be very expensive. If it was 30000 for the main license and encompassed unlimited users, it would take quite a few people to make it affordable.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 11:09:28 GMT
There is not much information to be found on where they aim to go with this new license. You must remember however, that Outsystems has never been anybody's pal, it's aimed towards the corporate environment, not against small independent developers like us. So I don't go from the thought that the next license option will be for let's say 1.000 dollars a pop. Besides that, nothing is perfect, and that goes for Outsystems as well. I like it very much, but they too have documentation issues of which you become aware of once you are working in more detailed way with it and need specific information on features, widgets, methods and what not. Their help system is pretty generic, and in the end their "Academy" video series is what you have to go on. A bit like Alpha's new approach with instructional videos rather than a comprehensive written manual. I can understand that. It simply takes up way too much resources and you will have old information once you have completed it. Outsystems Community Edition is workable for small apps, and since your customer will probably have their own platform active, the limits will be application bound which gives you a basis to work with for smaller applications. Unfortunately, I personally will not be able to rebuild EVERY app I have in Outsystems since the larger ones use 150++ tables.
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