davem
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Post by davem on Sept 3, 2013 18:18:22 GMT
With v7 and back, you purchased the developer and a runtime matching the nuber of concurrent users. users license was 3-5-10-20 and unlimited.
When version 8 came out, they charged for developer and runtime was for each seat and each seat had to be registered. That was broken down and where runtime became unlimited with no registration. We fought hard and long to get that one fixed.
version 10.5 is where the alpha became large for deployment at over 100 mg as an install package.
v11 was promised with IIS that has never come to pass, but there were other added in that did help.
with v12 alpha stated the only way to go there was by subscription. Now you can get it as ala-carte. It has only been a couple of months since it was introduced.
Point is, I think they are finding their place in the market.
The only problem I see for them is their was/as as very pricey and something I don't want at any price and some inherent bugs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2013 18:38:53 GMT
Well, if here is ONE thing I have learned over the years, is there is only one recipe for success: put your customer first!
And at Alpha's they always did. In the past, doing business with Alpha has always been nice. But I guess over the years they have found too little growth to their likings. They have never settled for "a position" that could fit their product. They always wanted to be in the "big league". Where they simply did not belong. Now, there is no problem if you try to get higher on the ladder, but always remember to put your customers first.
Now, it seems Alpha has completely left their own user base and wanders out there trying to find its way to the big league, forgetting all about what it is that their actual customers want, trying hard to invent new wheels that they think their imaginary customers want. You can't live of imaginary customers. You need real customers. Everybody can tell you that it is not very smart throwing your old shoes away before you have new ones. Nevertheless, that's exactly what they did.
They could have grown inside their own niche. Their old customer base would have been very happy with a further enhanced desktop from WCD, so that they could truly go for "develop once, publish anywhere". Now, that's simply not the case. You can't develop a desktop app, and tomorrow publish it on the web. With WCD that would have been possible.
WCD isn't even their invention! To be truthful, it's actually mine and Ken's. We invented not only the name "WCD", but also the way of use, the method. At the point we invented it, you could not even use it since there were a lot of errors, or things that wouldn't work because they never anticipated this type of usage of their components. At that point, the components were not even published to the shadow if you drew a shadow!! So we had that all fixed in good communication with Selwyn.
But instead of them using WCD to get re-connected to their old and loyal userbase, they didn't and simply moved forward in their delusional quest for the corporate customer, that will never come. If we all weren't affected by it, it would almost be something to laugh about over a beer. Now, it's rather sad instead. Sad for all of those people who have given their support to Alpha for that many years.
There is, at this point in time, where members are thrown of the forum, censored, only because they have the best for Alpha Five in mind and speaking their minds, only one way to go: somewhere else. Move forward.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2013 2:06:41 GMT
As you say, Marcel, sad but true. For the life of me, I cannot understand why Alpha seemingly wants nothing to do with WCD when it really has the potential to be a desktop far easier to use and develop with as well as put it on the web and mobile. Maybe some day they will see the light but if some day doesn't come within another year, they may well have lost a majority of the DT customer base. Customers will catch on to the fact that even by supporting v11 for the next year or so, technology changes and other platforms will pass them by only to see them in the rear view mirror choking on the dust. Alpha really has no choice but to either develop WCD or continue with the current DT by enhancing it. It's the only way they will keep the majority of their customer base. That is a no brainer and it's so obvious, even a blind man can see it. As long as Alpha ignores the obvious, the deeper in the hole they fall.
As far as pricing is concerned, Alpha appears to be as ignorant on that as they are with DT and WCD development. Paul, as you said, the pricing structure changes every new release and each time Alpha has a battle with it's loyal customers over it.That should say something to them. It does to me. Is Alpha really finding its way in the pricing market. I doubt it. There is only one reason why they switched v12 to a la carte, subscriptions were not selling or there would be no need to change their policy.
Another big blunder is banning folks and deleting posts and threads. Instead of using it to their advantage, they threw dirt in everyone's face; themselves, the folks who were banned and their loyal customers. Yes, everyone lost on that deal all because of arrogance and pride. A saying they would do well to heed, "Pride cometh before the fall".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2013 7:10:41 GMT
Critics of course became more harsh when they did not even react to the first people writing how they felt about it. It simply seemed they had no interest in what their customers said whatever. Many have repeated that feeling on the IADN forum: they felt left out, ignored. And yes, that's when people get disappointed, angry, what not. And then, critics will become more harsh. It seems Alpha does not know how to deal with communication issues.
Many times Richard has made promises on the forum that were not kept. Like the moment he said that he would make an announcement to the long time users soon about changes that would be significant to long time users. He never did make that announcement and members had to read it from the site at the same time the general public could read it. Changes in the licensing policy were nowhere near "significant". Quite on the contrary. And that again was felt like a slap in the face by many. They simple don't know how to deal with customers. In that many years of operations, one would think they got it by now. But they don't. They are still making very basic mistakes and are losing customers over that.
In the end, they made some adjustments but the pricing structure of the app server is still unworkable, as Dave also said. If you are an independent developer and create database solutions for customers, you would need to tell your customer they would also need a subscription (or perpetual license) of some proprietary app server at huge cost besides your own costs. That won't fly in today's market. There actually is a crisis going on which they completely ignore at Alpha's.
The fact they have changed their policies so often during the product life of A5 shows how little understanding they have about their own customers. Instead, they are hunting ghosts. For me, it's enough already: I won't purchase any of their products anymore as long as this is all going on. It's way to unprofessional for me. Competitors have passed Alpha in several ways a long time ago. Looking around in the market has learned me at least that. Several other products are out there that have very strong assets going on for them. For now, I like Outsystems best.
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davem
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Post by davem on Sept 5, 2013 0:48:18 GMT
Alpha as a whole does not want wcd at all. It fell on them hard as a way around using the as/was which they get money for. This non-commital of the wcd may be because they figured out that it could cut into their sales monies an more ways than just the desktop app which they would not really care one way or another about.
Question: Can wcd be used as a way to get around the was/as on the web?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 10:59:45 GMT
Alpha as a whole does not want wcd at all. It fell on them hard as a way around using the as/was which they get money for. This non-commital of the wcd may be because they figured out that it could cut into their sales monies an more ways than just the desktop app which they would not really care one way or another about. Question: Can wcd be used as a way to get around the was/as on the web? Dave, an answer to your question first: Yes. You can use WCD to create apps over the internet that do not need to use the Application Server. I have successfully finished tests together with Ken doing so. However, you would only be able to do so if you KNEW your users. So, not for the general public who you don't know as a user (yet). So, its use is limited I would say to intranet applications. On the other hand, regardless of this limit, many apps are used that way, so, in most cases this would actually work great. Furthermore to WCD: the "old" desktop tooling of Alpha Five I consider ancient and obsolete. Many of it breaths the atmosphere of Windows 3.1 styling. Like the calendar object. Many other things like the embedded browse I consider unstable and a source for trouble. Obviously, Alpha is incapable of modernising the desktop section. Either they don't have the source code of it (because much seems third party stuff) or they don't see it good business to invest in it. Anyway, they are not investing in it as we see. Using WCD they would have struck 2 flies in one hit: [1] they already have the components so could simply re-use them and [2] they could have had a successor to the desktop section with little added effort, in which way they had been able to continue services their desktop customers who now more-and-more spread out and look elsewhere. They just had to invest a bit of time going over some nasty little problems that are still attached to WCD which would have been a minor investment. They would have then had a true product according the adagium "Develop Once, Publish Anywhere".They did not. So no they are stuck with a product section that already is almost beyond worth saving, and they missed a valuable opportunity to improve service levels with little effort. "Why not?" is the question. Well, I think it is very simple: it took them by surprise! THEY did not invent it, WE did! So at the moment we came out in the open with "WCD", Richards mouth fell open from surprise. He never guessed that this could become a successor of the desktop section. But at THAT point however, all decisions were already made, and all investments were directed towards mobile already, chasing the customer they did not have. At that time (as I see it) they could see the WCD boat sailing, but were unable to get aboard. They simply missed the boat there. Lack of vision is one of the managerial misses I have seen a lot at Alpha Software. Illusions they have enough, but vision based on the real world they don't have. They are missing connection with their own customers. I once read somewhere that one of the new investors decided to come aboard Alpha Software because of the good relationship it had with its customers. Well, reading that I could not help myself asking if that was the same company that just threw out a bunch of longtime loyal customers just because they were willing to offer critics on the companies policies. Was that the company that was supposed to have "a good relationship with its customers"? A company that did not respond to their customers questions and worries openly spoken out on the forum for longer than half a year? I guess they see Alpha Software through very different eyes than most users do. Once their eyes will open, they will probably have lost a considerable amount of their investment.
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Ted Giles
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Data Migration and Desktop Solutions
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Developer type: Independent Developer
Real first name: Ted
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Post by Ted Giles on Sept 5, 2013 14:07:08 GMT
Well I for one would like a way of taking Alpha to task for the let downs we have experienced. Any Ideas? One I have thought of included writing to the editors of the magazines which purport to "love" Alpha Anywhere, and point them at the Alpha Forum - where they will see all the missing information, self help and grumbles. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see them out of business, just to shame them into doing the right thing.
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davem
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Post by davem on Sept 5, 2013 18:39:34 GMT
Ted,
Pointing at the forum might not work for much longer. They have already started the prctice of deleting threads/post that are remotely pesimistic and sometimes for absolutely no reason. Threads and posts just disappear.
Wht I am saying is, it IS getting worse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 18:54:06 GMT
You could hardly imagine that it actually CAN get any worse than it is now. I assume, once they are left all alone there, the practice will end.... which may not take as long as they may think.
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davem
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Post by davem on Sept 5, 2013 19:35:46 GMT
Well, the traffic on there when they released v8 or v9 (I think) went sky high at over 500. They have never had that heavy of traffic since. What I see posted now is very sparse and mostly to do with people having problems with what are really bugs(mostly browse).
A lot of the people signing on now are thinking they can snap their fingers to have a database web page and phone/tablet at immediate disposal.
Wait until they find the real story and then get shot in the butt by the price of the was/as. That is not to beat them up, but you still need a windows dedicated server or vps for it to run on for a true web site. Those are not really cheap either for a small guy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2013 21:06:45 GMT
I guess they thought like "Well, if the small guy can't afford it, then let's go and sell it to the corporate world who can." Unfortunately, the corporate world would probably not even want to be found dead with their product. Alpha Five is a product of the history, sold as a product for the future. It can't measure up with products like OutSystems, it comes not even close to being taken into consideration by the corporate world. It has NO team features. Nothing. It does not offer any features for Business Process Management or Logic. It has nothing build in for separated development, test and production environments, no release policy management features, nothing. This is really a one-guy-product with a team-price attached to it. If this does not change soon, it WILL bite the dust. Once you have looked at some of the other products out there at this moment, there really is not much reason to ever go back to the Alpha Five concept. It had it's time, but that time is gone. What's left is a product way overestimated, built together from parts that don't work well together and is mostly unstable in my opinion and is sold by a company that does not have the least of respect for its own customers. Standard recipe for frustration I would say.
Ted, I can understand why you would say that and would want to "strike back" in some way to get things "corrected". But they simply don't want things to change over there. And if they don't want it, nothing you say or do will change that. So why throw all of that negative energy towards them. Better invest your energy in positive stuff Ted, like I know you to be. Do yourself a favor, and have a look at alternatives out there. See some videos about Outsystems. It may be something for you. Or platforms like Wakanda, Instant Developer or WebMaker. All good stuff to consider. I wouldn't invest any more energy in that company. Be over and done with it. Invest your time in positive things!
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Ted Giles
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Developer type: Independent Developer
Real first name: Ted
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Post by Ted Giles on Sept 6, 2013 9:01:33 GMT
You could both be right. What I need is an Iron Man costume and to turn up on the doorstep! I have been looking at alternatives like InDe and WinDev, so once the summer is out of the way I will have more time to study them. Not looked at Outsystems yet, but I will. How's the hip Dave?
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davem
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Posts: 184
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Developer type: Developer for own company
Real first name: Dave
Real family name: Mason
Country: USA
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Post by davem on Sept 6, 2013 18:13:19 GMT
Ted,
The hip is great and thanks for asking.
I think we have all looked at and studdied almost everything out there to this point. A lot of that is on the iadn forum since alpha did not appreciate it. LOL Marcel is trying to go with outsystems due partly to his familiarity with the platform and others of us would like to. The price was somewhat prohibitive at 30,000 a year. There may be changes coming there though.
A great many of us are getting(have gotten) the perpetual license from instant developer that does the same c#.net and java as outsystems, but for far less dollars. Some of us have script case for php.
Windev was not something I considered due to 3 platforms that work mostly independent. Windev/webdev/phpne?dev. All with seperate pricing.
I had rather have inde where I can create an app in c#.net and use it on a single computer/lan/web and stll have a strong phone/tablet following. Java can also do the same. So can php by scriptcase.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 8:22:50 GMT
It seems that in every newsletter or marketing e-mail I now get from Alpha Software they do not mention the desktop anymore AT ALL. To me, that proves the desktop is de facto dead for Alpha Software. They don't seem to find it important enough to spend any more time on it in their e-mail marketing.
That leaves many, many Alpha Five developers out there cold. The majority of Alpha's current customers are small SOHO type developers who mostly are working on desktop applications. They have done little to make a transfer to web/mobile possible for those customers.
And it would have been soooooo easy to do that, using WCD. WCD would have been the perfect tool to put together ONE solution for ALL product sections. They must be really limited in their visions there. WCD would have had the power to integrate their historical customer base into the boat that sails into the (uncertain) future. Instead, the boat left leaving those historical desktop customers behind on their own. The future will prove how stupid that exactly was!
WCD would also have realised the credo: "Develop Once, Publish Everywhere". That would have been a great marketing asset for them to be able to say that. They now can't since obviously once you have developed an old-style desktop application with Alpha Five, you can't go anywhere else with it than to a desktop! Had they embraced WCD a bit more, the user could have migrated ANY WCD application to the Web with just a few adaptations. It really is a shame and it shows how little vision folks over there actually have.
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